Putting the fear of God into Holland

[Ghazala]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...8514_1,00.html

[Andalousi]

Just goes to show how society’s attitude towards things can change very quickly over one incident. It’s interesting though Ghazala the word they constantly use is tolerate. I personally don’t like that word as its quite hollow, it doesn’t indicate anything sincere. People should be respected not tolerated.

[Ghazala]

The article would have been presented a lot differently in the Guardian don't you think?

People are fickle & in the post 9/11 world, this is the order of the day. I totally agree with the aim of respect rather than tolerance. One indicates acceptance while the other does not. I would much rather that we be respected and accepted (although, to be honest, if we're not accepted tough luck ). People are 'tolerant' because they have to be - either because its not PC to be openly racist or simply because they are 'outnumbered' in certain areas.

Funny with the Dutch Moroccan community & the fear of 'Islamists'. Social exclusion is a problem and unemployment does run high, especially in the small towns. From what I know, having family over there & visiting regularly, the 'problem' is not religion. It is the same age-old problem we have across Europe; which is that they have failed to integrate for one reason or another. People are not particularly religious. Conservative in some respects yes. No more than the community here. Yet 'Islam' is to blame. Funny that.....

[Andalousi]

Maybe so, but I’ve lost a lot of respect for the Guardian, since their editorial agreed with the governments decision to invade Iraq. The Independent interestingly was the only broad sheet paper to my understanding that opposed the invasion from the beginning. At least with other papers like the Telegraph and Daily Mail you know what to expect, i.e. the usual anti-immigrant, anti-muslim propaganda.

The situation in France is just like the situation in Holland but on a massive scale. I read one statistic that a North African graduate was 10 times less likely to get a job than his/her French compatriot. With obstacles like this no wonder massive problems exist between the two communities. Whenever people are excluded in society ghettos are formed. So before anyone talks about integrating (another word I don’t particularly like) the environment has to be conducive for integration to take place, otherwise it really means nothing. The topic of integration is a big issue, when does integration become assimilation? And what exactly do European governments mean when they talk about integration? I certainly have my suspicions when they talk about integration. It reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek, where all life forms are assimilated into one huge entity hahha...

[Ghazala]

Don't we have that problem here? Ok, maybe not to the same extent as in France but it's certainly present. How many rejections did you get after leaving uni compared to your 'white' friends? In this sort of climate, as you've stated, a lot will retreat to ghettos. However, isn't it in our own interests that we try to avoid this? If we accept that the environment isn't conducive & retreat to ghettos, who is going to benefit?

Btw, apart from conjuring up visions of Borg, what is it you don't like about the word integration?

[Andalousi]

It’s not so much the word itself but when politicians talk about integration they usually mean we won’t accept you until you fulfill certain criteria and usually these criteria go against Islamic values, just look at the French for example, with the ban on hijab, where’s the logic in that? Now they’ve gone a step further by trying to dictate what kind of education Imams are given. Look at Turkey, how secular can a Muslim country be and even they are being discriminated against. Turkey has done far more in terms of securing Europe through Nato than most countries and still they are treated like circus animals, told to jump through hoop after hoop. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating the ghetto mentality but Muslims have to be savvy when people talk about integration, especially if they’re politicians.

[Corazon]

Strange is this. I'm a Belgian living in Spain and I agree with like everything that is said here, be it about "integration" or Turkey entering the EU. I am so much pro Turkey joining EU , why not Morocco, and I realise day after day I am a minority in thinking so.

Where are you guys from ?