Theja, Can you elaborate on your beliefs?

[Theja]

"otherwise I can never respect myself anymore" -- Hattushil.

This line strikes me, as it is a normal reaction that lies within each of us -- some stronger, some less so.
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So you don't know the Holy Spirit?

I just quoted you above and wish to let you know that there is genuine pride and false pride. False pride comes from assumption and presumption. If you wish to discard false pride within you, you need to first be honest with yourself --- that, in this case, you will fairly investigate before being so riled up in your own opinion.

I am amazed that you could so arrogantly dismiss the Holy Spirit. If you understand the Holy Spirit and still disbelieve or disagree, that's one thing. But before possessing some relevant information about the Holy Spirit, it is sheer pride (or false pride) to snub the Holy Spirit in the way you did.

Since you're not in the mood for widening your information, I'll simply offer a few biblical examples concerning the Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 1:2, the Spirit of God was there in creation. Because God is holy (He declared His holiness numerous times in the Bible) we call the Spirit of God "Holy" : Holy Spirit.

In deciding to send 'flood' on earth, God refers to His Spirit (my Spirit, Genesis 6:3).

King David begged God not to remove the 'Holy Spirit' from his life (Psalm 51:11).

The Spirit of God came upon Samson, Gideon, etc (read Judges if you have time) --- that is the reason they could do mighty works.

[Hattushil]

Okay, let's go step by step...

1- God says in Old Testament,

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. ....Isaiah - 44:6

and

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any]....Isaiah - 44:8

2- God says in New Testament,

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.---Mark 12:28 - 30

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.---James - 2:19

Considering the above verses, dear Theja, It is clearly stated in Old Testament that "THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO IS FIRST AND LAST" and "THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE HIM"....So, the God of Old Testament is actually the same God of Quran,

He is the First and the Last and the Ascendant (over all) and the Knower of hidden things, and He is Cognizant of all things. Quran, Chapter: 57, Verse: 003

Oneness of God is clearly mentioned in Old Testament, it is several times mentioned even in New Testament....And Jesus himself clearly states that he came to fulfill the teachings of Old Testament (it also includes the "oneness of God")....It is also several times mentioned in the New Tastement that Jesus did not have any power rather than the power "given" by the God to him and he was all dependant on the "father-the Lord"....With a simple logic,It is clear that everything including "Jesus" and "Holy Spirit" are created by the God...Then,we can safelly say that anything, which is created and dependant, can not be God....This simple logic is applied to Jesus himself and the Holy Spirit....Hence, i would rather prefer to put "Holy Spirit" in his own place as mentioned in Quran and Old Testament,

"Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (The Noble Quran, 16:102)"

"Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- (The Noble Quran, 40:15)"

It is clear that "the Holy Spirit" of Bible is the angel "Gabriel" (or Holy Spirit) of Quran who brought the revelation to the prophets (including Prophet Jesus)...

So, simply Theja, the above looks much more "logic" to me than believing that the god consists of three persons...For time being, i am not going further and just expressing my own logic regarding the matter since i don't want to look attacking your religion and breaking your emotions....

Regards.

[Theja]

You dilute the Bible with erroneous statement from the Koran.

This is my challenge to you: give me evidence that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created by God, as you claimed.

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If you wish to find the self revelation of God to the world from the Bible, DO NOT QUOTE THE KORAN. Stick to the Bible and find out first.

Yes, there is only one God. He is not the Allah of the Koran. The Allah of the Koran is an imitation and only a theoretical Allah in the minds of Muslims.

[Hattushil]

Originally posted by Theja
You dilute the Bible with erroneous statement from the Koran.

I would rather call it "adding a little bit voice of logic to the issue".... Though, i know that you don't like to hear it since it draws you to think....

This is my challenge to you: give me evidence that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created by God, as you claimed.

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The evidences are in the Bible itself...In the old tastement and even in the New tastement as i explained above, you don't have to be a genius to see them....

I quoted several verses from the Bible, go and re-read them....You can never deny the fact that there is "ONE ALMIGHTY GOD" unless you refuse the teachings of the Old Testament....And then, of course, you must overcome the difficulties to explain the contradictions in New Testament regarding the same issue....

If you wish to find the self revelation of God to the world from the Bible, DO NOT QUOTE THE KORAN. Stick to the Bible and find out first.

Why shouldn't i quote the Quran along Bible? Are you affraid of hearing the voice of reason ?

Yes, there is only one God.

Thanks for admitting the absolute truth....This is better than saying "the God consists of three persons"....

Theja, i can understand atheism, agnosticism and all, the one may not beleive a creator or a God....But i can't understand how a person can beleive a creator who consists of three different persons, this seems sign of paganism to me...

He is not the Allah of the Koran. The Allah of the Koran is an imitation and only a theoretical Allah in the minds of Muslims.

Call it whatever you want....Yahova, God, Allah, etc...in all languages....But it is obvious that there must be only "ONE ALMIGHTY GOD" if there is a creator of the earths and heavens and all the things between them.....

Regards.

[Theja]

The God of the Bible is well established hundreds of years before the Koran was conceived. The Koran borrowed the idea of one God from the Bible, and voluminously quote and repeat Bible stories.

So if you really want to know the one true God, study how God revealed Himself first in the Bible. Here the Koran is irrelevant. It only brings pointless arguments and confusion to the Muslims.

In the Bible the one true God is a Spirit. God is holy, so we call the Spirit of God Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit we call God. ONE GOD. This same one God we also call Father.

God the Father: God the Holy Spirit: ONE GOD. the same God.

Muslims have misunderstood this and it has contributed to their arrogance and blindness.
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Muhammad (and his followers the Muslims) erroneously think Christians are promoting polytheism. At the same time, the Allah that Muhammad promoted is not the God of the Bible, so Muslims are only theoretical in their belief in one God. They have absolutely no evidence that they have relationship with the God of the Bible. The claim is there, but the evidence is missing.

Unless Muslims understand this difference, they will always be arrogant thinking the Jews and Christians have wrong ideas of God. It is the Muslims who should reinvestigate whether their Allah is the same one that the Bible is talking about.

The Bible should correct the Koran, and anything in the Koran that contradicts the Bible should be considered erroneous.

[Hattushil]

Originally posted by Theja
[b] The God of the Bible is well established hundreds of years before the Koran was conceived. The Koran borrowed the idea of one God from the Bible, and voluminously quote and repeat Bible stories.

Your claim does not seem correct to me since you say that the God of Bible is not the same God with the God of Quran....

It rather seems to me that there is something wrong with the God of New Testament because The Old Testament says that "THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO IS FIRST AND LAST", "THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE HIM"....And Also Quran says that "THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO IS FIRST AND LAST", "THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE HIM"....But interestingly the New Testament, which is historically between Old Testament and Quran, says that "ONE GOD REVEALED THROUGH THREE DISTINCT PERSONS".....Something must be wrong, right?

By the way, considering the teachings of Old Testament, the God of New Testament does not contradict with the God of Quran only but it also contradicts with the God of Old Testament....

So if you really want to know the one true God, study how God revealed Himself first in the Bible. Here the Koran is irrelevant. It only brings pointless arguments and confusion to the Muslims.

Which true God in the Bible are you talking about Theja? Go and resolve the contradictions between the teachings of the Old and New Testaments about the "GOD" first....And then we can start the teachings of Islam regarding the matter...

In the Bible the one true God is a Spirit. God is holy, so we call the Spirit of God Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit we call God. ONE GOD. This same one God we also call Father.

God the Father: God the Holy Spirit: ONE GOD. the same God.

Muslims have misunderstood this and it has contributed to their arrogance and blindness.
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You must decide first...There is only "ONE GOD" or " ONE GOD REVEALED THROUGH THREE DISTINCT PERSONS".....Think about it and enlighten us....

Muhammad (and his followers the Muslims) erroneously think Christians are promoting polytheism.

Yes, it rather akins to god Zeus and his semi-god sons for me....Sorry Theja but this is my opinion....

At the same time, the Allah that Muhammad promoted is not the God of the Bible, so Muslims are only theoretical in their belief in one God.

Thanks god, we beleive "ONE ALMIGHTY GOD"...

They have absolutely no evidence that they have relationship with the God of the Bible. The claim is there, but the evidence is missing.

We rather claim the opposite since the Trinity is totally against the God of Islam and Judaism...

Unless Muslims understand this difference, they will always be arrogant thinking the Jews and Christians have wrong ideas of God.

LOL...This is a real fun Theja.... Would you like to argue with a jew about the idea of "One God revealed through three distinct Persons".....I am sure they will have couple of things to tell you...

And a friendly advise to you, you never say to a Jew that Jesus is the son of God, he may not me happy with this statement at all....

Seriously Theja, the God of Judaism has no similarity with the God of Christianity....

It is the Muslims who should reinvestigate whether their Allah is the same one that the Bible is talking about.

Why Theja? You should first investigate whether your God is the same one that the Old Testament is talking about...

The Bible should correct the Koran, and anything in the Koran that contradicts the Bible should be considered erroneous.

Why Theja? Because you just want so?

You first overcome the contradictions in your Bible first,let alone correcting our Quran....This is your first task now, talk to your priests about the matter, let them make some editings too as the thousands of editings carried on for 2 thousands years...

Regards...

[Theja]

Again, without playing around your claims, let me simply rephrase it:

The Allah of the Koran is only a theoretical god whose idea is borrowed from the Bible. When you pray five times a day to your Allah, you are praying to a theory, maintained by religious rules.

You are not praying to the God of the Bible. If you wish to follow the God of the Bible, you need to follow all that God revealed Himself in the Bible.