The concept of God in Islam.

[Theja]

Yes, I cannot fully understand and appreciate the nuances and local flavor of the beauty of Arabic language. But I can read the translated stories in the Koran and see the poor quality of its content: such as the vague stories of Noah, David, Lots, Jonah, etc. To me they are sometimes inaccurate and lousy sermons.

They may appear impressive to those who have very little knowledge of the Bible; but to a student of the Bible like me, they appear silly and incoherent.

---------------------------------------

Abdelmessih of Egypt listed 125 foreign words and 24 grammatical errors in the Koran.

[Hattushil]

Originally posted by Theja
Yes, I cannot fully understand and appreciate the nuances and local flavor of the beauty of Arabic language.

Thanks for confessing the truth, at least we all know now that Quran is much further than being a book written by an illiterate person....

Any way,this is for your own benefit since it saves you from becoming a joke here...

But I can read the translated stories in the Koran and see the poor quality of its content: such as the vague stories of Noah, David, Lots, Jonah, etc. To me they are sometimes inaccurate and lousy sermons.

As i told you before, if your argument is gonna depend on the accuracy of the stories in the Bible, you are doomed to lose the debate....

I could never imagine that you might be so much silly to ensist such an empity idea....The below quotations prove How accurate the Bible is,

2nd Samuel,

10:18 The Syrians fled before Israel; and David killed of the Syrians the men of seven hundred chariots, and forty thousand horsemen, and struck Shobach the captain of their host, so that he died there.

1st Chronicles,

19:18 The Syrians fled before Israel; and David killed of the Syrians the men of seven thousand chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.

------------------------------------------------------------

1st Samuel,

17:12 Now David was the son of that Ephrathite of Bethlehem Judah, whose name was Jesse; and he had eight sons: and the man was an old man in the days of Saul, stricken in years among men.

1st Chronicles,

"Jesse was the father of Eliab his first-born, Abinadab the second, Shimea the third, Nethanel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, Ozem the sixth, David the seventh." (2:13-15)


------------------------------------------------------------


2nd Samuel,

So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

1st Chronicles,

So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith Jehovah, Take which thou wilt:
either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before thy foes, while the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of Jehovah, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Jehovah destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me.( 21:11-12)

------------------------------------------------------------


This is enough for time being but it seems to me that there are quite a few "translation" mistakes in the Bible....

They may appear impressive to those who have very little knowledge of the Bible; but to a student of the Bible like me, they appear silly and incoherent.

---------------------------------------

I highly advise you to re-study the Bible,there must be something that escaped from your very carefull eyes and very bright mind....

Abdelmessih of Egypt listed 125 foreign words and 24 grammatical errors in the Koran.

I am ready to listen such alleged grammatical errors....

But i would kindly remind you that your "Abdelmessih of Egypt" is nobody in the middle of nowhere comparing a serious Quran researchers such as Arthur J. Arberry whose book is published by Oxford University....

I warned you regarding Couple of ignorant, hypocrite and bigot priests, didn't i ?

By the way Theja, your list of unanswered questions is getting longer....

Regards.

[Theja]

Very childish of you to hang on to a universal reality..... that you too cannot understand the local flavor and nuances of my language.

It is the clear mesage in the Koran that is the bigger problem, of cheap imitation, historical errors, vagueness and incoherence... or in short PLAGIARISM. Even then Muhammad did a poor job.
-------------------------------

Actually the burden of proof should be on Muhammad, since he tried to imitate the Bible. How about starting with the Story of Joseph or David in the Koran. I can easily point out your error and the shame Muslims try to hide by attacking the Bible.

-------------------------------

Concerning the passages you quoted, those were not translation mistakes. It also refutes the Muslim claims that Jews or Christians changed the Bible. Copyists were aware of this, and yet they revered the Word of God so great that NO ONE tried to correct those apparent discrepancies.

I have dealt with Muslims on these passages already. They are not new to me.

An example: (1 Samuel 16:10-11) Samuel was recorded earlier, probably when Jesse had eight sons. One must have died early at a young age before marriage. When Samuel the prophet was sent to Jesse to select one of his sons as future king, Jesse presented eight sons.

The son that died early and unmarried played no significant role and must have been felt unnecessary by the scribe to be left out; at the same time, the same scribe provide additional family members -- two sisters of David (1 Chronicles 2:16) -- whose sons played a big role in the kingdom of David.

The fact that two scribes could provide such specific details proves its historicity and authenticity. The missing little detail is not a problem in light of the two accounts. It is too minor to be harping about by Muslims.

----------------------------------------------

Biblical problems are of minor in nature and does not affect the doctrine or flow of history. As for the Koran, the errors are too irreconcialable to be taken seriously.

[Hattushil]

Originally posted by Theja
Very childish of you to hang on to a universal reality..... that you too cannot understand the local flavor and nuances of my language.

Then i have a friendly advise to you, you never talk about something that you actually know nothing about it...

It is the clear mesage in the Koran that is the bigger problem, of cheap imitation, historical errors, vagueness and incoherence... or in short PLAGIARISM. Even then Muhammad did a poor job.
-------------------------------

Yeah, if your reference is the Bible, you may definatelly have such an opinion.... However, the Bible is not so much accurate source either considering the contradictions even between its different versions (a "holy book" should not have any version in the first place though... ) in addition to the contradictions between the Old and New Testaments...Therefore i would rather prefer to consider Quran as a holly book which corrects the distorted facts in a revised holly book by the humanbeing for 2 thousands years...

Actually the burden of proof should be on Muhammad, since he tried to imitate the Bible.

He has no burden of anything to prove...He offers a religion to the people, you either take it or you leave it...As i do for your religion...

How about starting with the Story of Joseph or David in the Koran. I can easily point out your error and the shame Muslims try to hide by attacking the Bible.

I am ready to discuss about any matter regarding anything with you Theja...You can come with whatever argument you wish, as i told you earlier, you are doomed to lose all the debates since your reference is the Bible....

Concerning the passages you quoted, those were not translation mistakes. It also refutes the Muslim claims that Jews or Christians changed the Bible. Copyists were aware of this, and yet they revered the Word of God so great that NO ONE tried to correct those apparent discrepancies.

LOL....

First, what the hell are you talking about? What the jews have to do with your Bible,do not slander Jews, it was of course changed by the Christians considering the current different versions which contradict eachother, along the destroyed thousands of different Bible versions in the past...

Second, it seems to me that you ensist to make yourself a joke here Theja.... Sorry to inform you but you failed once more.... The reason is, it is inevitable fact that the editing activity currently continue, here is the latest version of the Bible regarding one of the contradicting Bible verse refered in my previous post,

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION:

2nd Samuel,

So Gad went to David and said to him, "Shall there come upon you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me." (24:13)

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION:

2nd Samuel,

So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me. (24:13)


Sorry Theja but it seems to me that the Bible is edited whenever suits your agendas....

I have dealt with Muslims on these passages already. They are not new to me.

Then, you will definatelly learn many new things from this modest Muslim, i can guarantee that...

At least you will learn not to insult our religion and not to attack it....When i am done with you, you will be helpless to do that any more...

An example: (1 Samuel 16:10-11) Samuel was recorded earlier, probably when Jesse had eight sons. One must have died early at a young age before marriage. When Samuel the prophet was sent to Jesse to select one of his sons as future king, Jesse presented eight sons.

The son that died early and unmarried played no significant role and must have been felt unnecessary by the scribe to be left out; at the same time, the same scribe provide additional family members -- two sisters of David (1 Chronicles 2:16) -- whose sons played a big role in the kingdom of David.

The nature of logic does not like "IF" clauses and the words starting with "PROBABLY" Theja....Such things are rather called "ASSUMPTIONS" which can never be considered as a "REALITY"....Do you have any "FACTUAL PROOF" to back your above claim? I think, NOT...

The fact that two scribes could provide such specific details proves its historicity and authenticity. The missing little detail is not a problem in light of the two accounts. It is too minor to be harping about by Muslims.

It is not the prooof of the authenticy of the Bible but is is definatelly the proof of the distortions and translation mistakes in the current Bible...Any one who has a little brain can confirm this simple fact Theja....

Furthermore, it should be very important detail for a Holly book which is supposed to be the "WORDS OF GOD"....Since there would be no inaccuracy in the book which was sent by God....

Furthermore, you seem to fail in bringing any explanation regarding another examples above....

Biblical problems are of minor in nature and does not affect the doctrine or flow of history. As for the Koran, the errors are too irreconcialable to be taken seriously.

The Biblical problems are not minor in nature dear Theja,the current Bible is contradicting in every manner...Aside the minor contradictions with your words, the teachings of New and Old testaments are contradicting, there is no any logic explanation about the Trinity yet...You are not even so sure whether there is one almighty God or he consists of three persons.....If you wish we can talk about "major" difficulties in the Bible either but i don't think you will be happy with this...

Therefore, i recommend you to leave going further in this issue, otherwise you will see yourself in more difficult situations...This lesson is enough for you for time being...I just advise you not to insult Muslims any more, do not attack our religion....If not, you will be answered in the same manner by me...Respect for expecting respect...I think you get my message...

Regards....

[Theja]

Actually, when two records of the same events are produced, people present them from different angles. THE FACT IS ESTABLISHED THAT IT WAS A HISTORICAL EVENT. In the Bible, some of those discrepancies deals mostly with variation in name spellings (universally practiced, such as Muhammad or Mohamed) and some numbers.

In Hebrew, the numbers are indicated by Hebrew letters, so sometimes the tiny dots and the superimposed fish hooks get smudged or fade -- making it difficult to ascertain the exact numbers --- as ancient documents become worn, brittle, or moth-eaten.

-----------------------------------------------------

These discrepancies are minor compared to the historical blunders in the Koran. Also the Koran is adept in the art of vagueness.

I want Muslims to keep this in mind as they go through the Koran: VAGUENESS. And REPETITIOUS (we'll discuss that later).

Muhammad would provide no geography, no context, no proper story setting, and would just go on with religious rambling. Not just in a few passages, but that is the pattern throughout the Koran. Example: Sura 26:123-191.

(Vagueness and error in the story of Lot, Sura 26:160-175, but we'll discuss that later).

Hud, Thamud, Salih, Shuaib. Where do they live? No answer. What is their nationality? No answer. Who are their relatives? No answer. During whose time they live? No answer. What is their religion? No answer.

No wonder, the Koran was so easy to manufacture by Muhammad. A very vague sermon. Some religious rambling.

[Theja]

Actually the Bible was not edited, that is why ignorant Muslims like you would be so arrogant and be condescending by pointing to a few apparent conflicts here and there. If it was edited, these discrepancies would have been corrected long ago.

Concerning 2 Samuel 24:13 and 1 Chronicles 21:11-12, it should be noted that the prophets tone and content of the message varied. Because God sent the prophet twice to David, with a modified offer the second time.

2 Samuel simply record the first instance, and 1 Chronicles simply record the second and final offer. David could not make up his mind, so God himself modified the offer, and even in that event, Himself prevented the disaster halfway (1 Chr. 21:15) --- showing His mercies even in judgments.

[Theja]

Also notice that when even outstanding men of God commit errors, they are not immune from God's judgments.

As for Muhammad, he committed many errors, and yet Allah was all the time following his orders without any discipline or judgments. But I guess, not knowing the Bible, Muslims would still think Muhammad was hearing from Allah --- not realizing that Muhammad sometimes make Allah seem ridiculous and an errand boy for the self-appointed rasul of Allah. Muhammad effectively made Allah his servant.