Some people obviously like trouble.......

[LalaMimi]

hmmm I sense a slight hint of sarcasm.

Anyhow - I'm glads that's sor'ed. Me no like been mizunedrstood

[voltaires_priest]

I think it's just one of those things - like you say, the woman is offensive, but she has the right to be offensive, free from death threats and intimidation.

I actually think you're right about this one (apart from the stuff about apostasy obviously )



V

[LalaMimi]

But she is an apostate - she was once a Muslim, now she rejects Islam.

She along with others, know what they are up against and they make a choice to express their views and experiences, it is also their Human right to be able to do that. But, others disagree to the point of wanting to silence such people. Though, that does not stop people such as this politician and the like of Irshad Manji (though this woman has yet to state she has rejected Islam), Ali Sina, Nonie Darwish etc.

Like I had stated before, they can do what they wish. It is also our responsibility to debate the issues raised with such people - because to silence/kill these people, is not only a terrible thing; but it is also counterproductive toward Muslims, in the way that it would appear to add credibility to what they have to state about Islam being a violent, oppressive death cult.

[Malik]

Speech is one matter but this is a person who purposes and votes on what becomes law. One example of this is that she pruposed a law in The Netherlands that would make it illegal for boys to become circumsised, obviously inflaming the Muslim and Jewish populations. Even members of her own party have accused her of using her public position for retribution of her own personal issues. People that I know in The Netherlands say that they feel that Muslims are treated as second class citizens and very little is done to create a credible dialogue.
Fatima Mernissi has said that situations like this occur because the West in general is not concerned about engaging in a serious dialogue of what are the concerns of Muslims, they are too busy imposing their views of why Muslims are wrong.

Hitler and others too have had 'freedom of speech' to promote their agendas and laws.

[voltaires_priest]

What's your alternative, though? Ban her from making statements like that about circumcision?

Don't get me wrong, to me her proposal sounds bizarre and I would personally oppose it. But it has to be done in the open, via free debate, and not via legislative bans.

Similarly with fascists - I believe they should be confronted wherever they appear, but the legislative banning route never works. Look at the furore over banning Hizb-Ut-Tahrir in the UK at the moment - the proposal is nonsense, and will probably only act as a recruitment sergeant for the Hizb.

I may hate what the Hizb and other extremist groups say, but I will defend their right to say it. And the same is true of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.



V

[Malik]

Originally Posted by voltaires_priest

What's your alternative, though? Ban her from making statements like that about circumcision?

Don't get me wrong, to me her proposal sounds bizarre and I would personally oppose it. But it has to be done in the open, via free debate, and not via legislative bans.

Similarly with fascists - I believe they should be confronted wherever they appear, but the legislative banning route never works. Look at the furore over banning Hizb-Ut-Tahrir in the UK at the moment - the proposal is nonsense, and will probably only act as a recruitment sergeant for the Hizb.

I may hate what the Hizb and other extremist groups say, but I will defend their right to say it. And the same is true of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

V

That is not a person making a statement on a issue, that is a person who attempted to make it illegal. There is plenty of laws in all western countries that explain the scope of 'free speech'. One may not make rhetoric that would cause a clear and present danger. What it is actually happening in places like The Netherlands and America is that there is a backlash due to goverments seemingly 'anti-Islamic' rhetoric and they are actually breeding terorists and extremists instead of supporting a grassroots movement for Muslims to weed out radicalism. Not only that but there is a clear case that a stigma is created in which makes it very diffacult for Muslims to have a competitive livelyhood. And as you Brits say 'there is the rub'. It appears to me much like a situation that blacks in America have faced during the '60's.
What I have seen in UK media is that there is an open debate about this, and all sides have seemingly good representives, and are treated as equal citizens; this simply is not the case with what I have seen in Dutch society. The 'overheid' has no problems with Muslims as long as they do not mention, let alone believe in Islam. Thus the debate is fixed and closed.


Look at what happened to the Somali community in The Netherlands, most of them moved to the UK! That is her people (whether she likes it or not). I saw a documentary on it where Somalis opened stores in London selling Dutch goods and watch Dutch television because they understand Dutch better than English LOL