arab democracy versus western democracy

[NAK-KKK]

I have claimed earlier that the arab world is more free an more democratic than the west ...someone (voltaire ) found this claim provacative , so i opened this new thread so that we can debate it calmly ...
Yes I say it and I repeat it the arab world is more free and democratic than the west and I can proove it ....today in the west a man's vote and political influence is measured by how much taxes he pays , the more taxes you pay the more rights you have in general and the more you can hope for a political carrier ...a man with no resourses cannot hope to have a political carrier and his vote is practically worthless....it is a minority who has the power and hold it tight...instead in the arab world even a man with no resources can make a change and can even get to power , see the examples of Gheddafi a simple military officer , or the Saud family , a family originally camel keepers , the same as Saddam who was a sheeps keeper before becoming a hit man and after that a president !!!!!!
voltaire can argue that still people from the arab world immigrate to the west because the west is free !?!?!?! nothing more false it is a simple myth that your western media is propaging ....I do not know one single arab who immigrated for freedom , 99% immigrated for money , business , economic matters , you want the proof , just offer any one in here the same salary he gets in London , offer him that same salary back home and see how many people will prefer going back home and how many will prefer the freedom of London to the dictatorship of say morocco !!! Nobody I am afraid , even if you offer them half of that salary back home ..., I guess most of those freedom seekers will prefer to live under the "dictatorship" of Morocco than living under the " freedom" of London ....the west is not free it is enslaved from top to bottom , but certain myths are hard to die....

[Bond]

Originally posted by NAK-KKK
I have claimed earlier that the arab world is more free an more democratic than the west ...someone (voltaire ) found this claim provacative , so i opened this new thread so that we can debate it calmly ...
Yes I say it and I repeat it the arab world is more free and democratic than the west and I can proove it ....today in the west a man's vote and political influence is measured by how much taxes he pays , the more taxes you pay the more rights you have in general and the more you can hope for a political carrier ...a man with no resourses cannot hope to have a political carrier and his vote is practically worthless....it is a minority who has the power and hold it tight...instead in the arab world even a man with no resources can make a change and can even get to power , see the examples of Gheddafi a simple military officer , or the Saud family , a family originally camel keepers , the same as Saddam who was a sheeps keeper before becoming a hit man and after that a president !!!!!!
voltaire can argue that still people from the arab world immigrate to the west because the west is free !?!?!?! nothing more false it is a simple myth that your western media is propaging ....I do not know one single arab who immigrated for freedom , 99% immigrated for money , business , economic matters , you want the proof , just offer any one in here the same salary he gets in London , offer him that same salary back home and see how many people will prefer going back home and how many will prefer the freedom of London to the dictatorship of say morocco !!! Nobody I am afraid , even if you offer them half of that salary back home ..., I guess most of those freedom seekers will prefer to live under the "dictatorship" of Morocco than living under the " freedom" of London ....the west is not free it is enslaved from top to bottom , but certain myths are hard to die....

Come on KKK be serious!! Maamar Keddafi, Saudi Arabia and democracy cannot possibly be mentioned in the same breath. Grant it, western countries are not in my view as democratic as they claim to be save may be the scandinavian countries but nevertheless you cannot possibly draw a parallel between them and the backward Arab countries. The Arabs wouldn't know democracy if it hit in the eye!

As for emigrating to the west for the sake of money, again I disagree with you. Money alone is not sufficient to keep me in Algeria. For instance:

1. One needs to express oneself freely on all subjects without having to watch one's back in fear of the government or the fundamentalist muslims.

2. One needs to be free of these stupid social constraints like having to fast during the month of Ramadan even if one is not a muslim.

3. One needs to get married to have sexual relationships even if one does not believe in marriage.

Need I go on?

The west is not perfect but it is a million miles better than any so-called Arab country. It is not easy because one is constantly reminded that one is an immigrant but still better than living in the country of one's ancestors.

Bond

[Corazon]

I agree that democracy is just a word , and people will always stumble over themselves to find a way to still have power over others. Our western democracy is just an aristocracy of the money.

I still have to say though that a few years ago I was sitting in a train in Morocco and somebody started to critisize the king - and two young people went red and left the compartment to wait untill the discussion was over cause they did not want anyone to hear that talk.

And one day in Tangiers i was talking to two guys and one went angry at Moroccon politics and the other went panicky and "ssssssst stop don't talk so loud" etc etc.

In the US a Michael Moore can simply yell "shame on you mr president" at the Oscars.

And further i find that this board is very often closed.

Arab world more "democratic" than europe... don't think so.

[-theTruth-]

Salam

I can only speak of what I know.
If we are talking about freedom
Freedom is great in Morocco in the last 5 years and I was really shocked when i went back there. for the first time i saw a woman swearing at the police and they could not do or say anything, you can now take a policeman to court etc....great and we need more.
i think Morocco needs to learn more from the spanish way of transision.
Women have always been strong and have always able to defend themselves even in the dark ages of the last regime. it was mainly the men who suffer abuses and torture.but now i feel that freedom is very real there.
However i am not sure if we are heading toward the true democracy.
on the other hands the west claim to have democracy. I found that to be a total lie when it comes to us minorities we are the same as before we are still called Aliens and in fact they have failed to apply it to small minories even the Jews who have always been in the recieving end can testify that such democracy is not real, people are attacked now and then.
I remember my Jewish neighbour(moroccan) was the victim of Racism on many occasions and when he bombarded the Police station with complaints he was told to move to another area when the majority of residence were Jews. similar things are happining to Muslims where the secrect services are being visibly present in the Mosques and some mosques are not even allowed to give out some sermons without the permission of the council which uses the tactics to stop us worshiping.
My local mosque alarge house in Herts was raided on many occasion by the police and the fire brigade under the pretext of health and safety regulations hello?? they were about 20 people praying and that offended the locals but if it was a party where girls loose their pants in the garden it would have been ok, it took an Asian pub a long time to have the licence granted because they were asians
The best case is in Liverpool where the muslims bought a great building in the centre of town and secrectly the council put an order to the land registery against it because they refused to see a mosque there (hamdolilah that sale is still going ahead) the list is endless the moment you bring in morals into the debate people automatically accuse you of being fanatic extreemist retarted etc...........and we are not new to this
many mosques have been attacked, my old local Jewish cemetry have been attacked by the mobs and you visit the sinagoge it looks like an Army checkpoint because of the fear...................
as to the rest of Arab countries my English friends who visited the Gulf told me that if they could speak Arabic they would never return to England thanks to the hospitality of the Arabs despite what the media say
and Allah knows best
As far as the Arab leaders are concered I hate them all and wish they can all be arrested they are evil doers.
conclusion
If we are talking about being free to do what you want i can tell you that is a nonsense, in Morocco i can just built a tent and have a wedding with a licence that can be granted rightaway i can stop and pray anywhere i want and no one will stop me try that in the west hahaha.
Even when i use to drink we used to have the police raing my friend pub at least twice a week and impose so much restrictions all under the pretext of health and safety crap.
so yes if you fight till you drop and have money to support your case then you may win if not you can end up like the innocent muslims who were arrested for 3 years without a charge simply because they voiced their opinion which is against the USA or some had some link to muslims abroad .......
BUT I STILL LOVE ENGLAND no matter how bad it feels because i feel secure but in Morocco I may feel free but not secure

[Corazon]

Thanks for that explanation Truth, that was very balanced and fair. But never ever take Spain as an example though, in nothing

Reading all that i take it that exactly the same happens to mosques in Spain - but I don't know. Why don't I know ? Because I don't know any muslims. How come I don't know them ? Well we seem to be move about in different places, work places, bars, cinema's... or what ? Do we all live in parallel worlds ??

As far as I know, if I would like to know a bit about Islam or know somebody who is muslim I would have to wait outside a mosque and then attack people like "are you muslim ? do you want to be my friend"?

OK all off-topic and not relevant but this sprang to mind when reading your experiences in the UK.

[-theTruth-]

LOl
I love the way spain handed the transision, bear in mind i still remember Franqo when i was a kid he was bad man.

[Corazon]

Ah THAT transition. OK , understood. I must say though that immediately afterwards Spain became part of the EU and up to this date half of the spanish roads are build with money received from the EU. I don't think it was Spain on itself. This country had TONS of help.

OK carry on.

Arab democracy versus "western" democracy.