Moroccan Sahara - The Facts

[the real mazigh]

Mohammed Abdelaziz was born in Morocco right but to us the Berbers he does not belong to the Amazigh land, (read my previous posts). The Berber land is for the Berber first & then the good Arab guests next. In the Berber forums my Berber brothers & sisters ex: kabily, don't agree with me. They say Berbers only Arabs out.
Mohammed Abdelaziz is originally from Sudan. As I said in my post before, the guest Arabs in north Africa, their origin can be traced & even more the Africans that came with them; I mean which country they came from for example; is it Iraq, Arabia or Sudan? Because they only lived in North Africa, say between 200 & 600 years or 700 years.
The Arab army came first to North Africa & bear in mind that it takes years to win the war & occupy the Berber land & make it safe for the Arab settlers.
The real mazigh.

[chasli]

Andalousi,

The Tingis article really doesn' clarify anything. If this article is the best "proof" you can come up with, I'd have to say that there is still hope for a free Western Sahara. Just a few comments on the varuious points made:

a) "In 1958, Prince Hassan chaired a conference whose goal was the liberation of the Sahara."

I'm not altogether sure what this is supposed to show. In 1958 Mohammed V/Hassan and the Istiqlal Party were in the middle of their silly game of trying to outdue the other in claiming increasingly large parts of northwest Africa. The greater Moroccan Thesis of 1958 also envisioned the "liberation" of Mauritania, and parts of Mali, Senegal, and Algeria -- in addition to the Spanish Sahara.

b)"In 1961, the African revolutionary leaders Kwame Nkrumah, Ahmed Sekou Tour, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Modibo Keita, the Algerian Ferhat Abbes and others met in Casablanca with Mohammed V to form the Casablanca Group and "discuss the Congo crisis, the liberation of Palestine, the war in Algeria, Morocco's claim to Western Sahara and Mauritania" and African unity."

And of course the Casablanca Group was one of the forerunners of the Organization of African Unity. I'm sure in 1961 they did discuss "Morocco's claim to Western Sahara; but unfortunately for Morocco the OAU ultimately concluded that Morocco had no rights to sovereignty over the Western Sahara and they admitted the Sahrawi ARab Democratic Republic (SADR) as a full member. If this 1961 meeting proves anything it is how weak the Moroccan case was.

c)"After independence, the Rif-based Moroccan Liberation Army branched out into the Saharan Liberation Army (SLA) as it redirected its focus to the still-occupied southern zone. They reached Layoun and Dakhla (Villa Cisneros), but as happened with Abdelkrim al-Khattabi in the Rif, they were repelled by a combined French-Spanish military operation code-named Ouragan. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it?)"

Again, I'm not sure what this is supposed to show. Under the logic of the greater Moroccan thesis, Morocco wanted to grab as much land as possible -- especially with the discovery of oil next door and the already evident huge phosphate and fishing wealth of the area.

d)"In 1969, Frank E. Trout, a Harvard academic published a book showing in meticulous detail how Morocco's eastern Saharan provinces were systematically annexed by the French when they were creating Algeria from scratch. The Larousse of 1888 defined the size of Morocco as 812,000 square kilometers, but in its 1897 edition, it reduced the size to 800,000 and in 1956 to only 430,810, without giving any idea how Morocco's landmass shrank to its present dimensions.
"

Please reference the name of the Trout book; I'd love to read it. As to the figures from the Larousse, who knows what might be the reason behind Morocco's shrinking landmass? Maybe the Larousse of 1888 included Algeria in Morocco; I don't know; or maybe the 812,000 figure was a mistake. But to take the Larousse figures as some proof of Moroccan sovereignty over the Western Sahara in 1888 just doesn't hold water. And of course the International Court of Justice looked into all of this and concluded that no rights to sovereignty existed. In addition I have searched far and wide for maps from the nineteenth century that show the Sahara as part of Morocco and I can't find any.

e)"There were indications that France wanted to negotiate with Morocco the return of some of its lost provinces, including Tindouf, before it gave Algeria to the Algerians. But Mohammed V who, like all Moroccans, had been supporting the Algerians' war of independence, rejected the offer, so confident was he that his Algerian brothers would give back Morocco's land upon independence.

I've always found this story incredibly suspicious: Come on -- Mohammed V trusting that brother Algeria "would give back Morocco's land upon independence." This truly strains credibility.

f) "Cuba's support of Algeria and the Polisario cost it a good customer--Morocco stopped buying sugar from Cuba and now produces more than half of its needs!"

This it seems to me supports the Sahrawi side. Given Cuba's anti-colonial credentials, Cuba must have sincerely and deeply agreed with the Sahrawi cause if they were willing to forgo so much sugar income to support the Sahrawi.

g)" Virtually all the early leaders of the Polisario started out as student revolutionaries in Morocco....There is proof that in the 1980s Moroccan religious extremists were trained by the Polisario."

Again, what does this prove. Maybe that there weren't any universities in the Spanish Sahara. And after all Stalin was from Georgia and Alexander Hamilton from Nevis in the Caribbean. And Polisario involvement with Moroccan religious extremists must be a joke. The Polisario has shown so little interest in religiouis extremism of any sort that apparently El Qaeda hasn't even bothered to try to infiltrate the Tindouf camps

h) "Many who oppose Morocco say that African nations decided to live within colonial frontiers so as not to create a new mess. That may be great for countries that didn't exist before, but this policy is absurd in the case of Morocco. If colonial borders were to be inviolate, then Morocco would have to be divided into seven parts!"

In 1975 the International Court of Justice was called on by Morocco, Mauritania and Spain to rule on the status of the Western Sahara. Morocco claimed that the territory had been under their sovereignty before Spanish colonialism and should be returned to Moroccan sovereignty based on the principle of territorial integrity. The Polisario claimed that the territory had never been under Moroccan sovereignty and thus decolonization gave them the right to choose their own fate via a referendum. My point here is that the ICJ was NOT saying that colonial borders were inviolate. If evidence was presented that showed that the territory had indeed been part of Morocco in 1884, the ICJ appeared ready and willing to advise that it revert back to Morocco. Of course, the ICJ found that "no tie of territorial sovereignty " in fact existed before the Spanish.

j) "There is no difference between Morocco's Sahrawi people and the Algerian ones. Why, then, shouldn't Algerian Sahrawis have their own country?" This doesn't seem to have much to do with anything. Algerian Sahrawis? Does he mean the ones in Tindouf or are there others that I've missed.

k) "The Green March was the most powerful event in Morocco's modern history. "Never before or since in modern times," writes Hughes, "has an idea so galvanized the whole country. It grabbled the emotions and imagination of the people."

If the Green March is indeed the most powerful even in Morocco's modern history, that's not saying too much about Morocco's recent history.

I've gone into some detail here on the Tigris magazine article because most of the assertions there just don't make sense, are blatantly untrue, or else support the Polisario side. Moroccans brainwashed on the greater Moroccan thesis appear to be the only people anywhere who really believe that Morocco's occupation of the Western Sahara is justified. No country on earth officially recognizes Moroccan sovereignty over the territory. International law unambiguously supports the Polisario. The African Union and some 70 countries recognize the SADR. Morocco gets away with its land grab only because its good friends France and the US refuse to put pressure on their good friend Morocco. EAst Timor had its day. The Western Sahara's day will come.

[the real mazigh]

I can do better than that. How did you come to the Berber North Africa?
I add nothing no more, I’ll only copy & paste my posts. My posts that no one is willing to comment on, including the dirty Arab invader, of my Berber land, 'PolisAlgerio sucker 'brim' & yourself.
Go & do something useful, you're wasting your time here. Writing lots of crap won't do you any good. Algeria is moving from Arab military government to civilian government & soon the dirty PolisAlgerio Arab suckers in Tindouf will be kicked out. Best if they get kicked out, on a camel, to the Gulf, to where they came from. The ****ers are not welcome any where in the Amazigh land.
The place you're living in as a bogus asylum seeker isn't for you, All of you PolisAlgerio Arab suckers living in Europe, you're wasting your lives, instead of going to the Gulf where you came from, be there with your real brothers & sisters, free your land from the American occupiers, free your Palestenian land, die in your own land with dignity & respect.
The emazighen aren't your brothers & sisters & their land isn't yours.
Being in Europe gives you stress, depression, plenty of racism & lots of wanking & no dignity & respect.
Your propaganda crap starts from 60's can you go back before that? Can you go to history books & read what was in there 11000 years ago? I can tell you that 11000 years ago or even half of that, your Arab people didn't even exist in the planet.
Copy & paste my posts:
@brim
You surely have to leave these things to Berber people, you don’t belong to that land so stay out. You should be returned back to where you originally came from. Iraq & Palestine need you very much; North Africa doesn’t need you at all. Or if you’re black, I know you’re in Africa, but don’t come near Berber land, Berber land is from Egypt to Mauritania & the whole north. If you; the Arabs have problems between yourselves, keep the Berber out of it & do it outside their land. We’ve had enough of invaders coming to our land causing problems & destroy our land. All invaders have left accept you the Arabs. PolisAlgerio Arab piece of ****; like you working for free for the Algerian military Arab scum, isn’t doing any good but only making fool of themselves, making more money for the billionaires Algerian Arab military from shawia & for their dogs Arabs in Tindouf (originally Moroccan) this land & other lands will be returned back to Morocco when the oil, source of money for Algeria, runs out. These military Arabs of Algeria have already badly beaten in 2 wars; 1963 & 1976. In the 1963 sand war if it wasn’t for Russia & Cuba helping out, whole of Algeria would be under Moroccan rule.
If you want to be like we say activist, why don’t you help the Basque or the Kurdish people for the right of a home land or support the Berber (Guanches) the canary islanders for independence from the Spanish occupation. These people are different race, speak different languages & been there before or the same time as their occupiers. But fighting & disliking your Arab people isn’t very good or isn’t very wise either. Just look at the human right abuses, torture & killings that is happening for many years, in the country you’re living in as a guest; Algeria, or if you’re a PolisAlgerio Arab sucker at least you should condemn it. All the Arabs & the Africans living in the Maghreb Berber are just a guests to the Berber.
The Algerian Arab military have killed over 2 million innocent people in Algeria in less than 10 years, 100’s of people have disappeared & 100’s have left to other countries. Sadam didn’t kill 2 million in less than 10 years. Algerian human right abuses, torture & killings is to be the worse in the world.
The Algerian military have successfully invented PolisAlgerio & suckers like you, to take revenge of 1963 sand war, but they never expected to have plenty of money pouring in from the idiots abroad. Now things have changed, money is more important. Suckers & dogs like you are sent to bring in more money, without getting any credits for it. Even people prisoned in camps in Tindouf aren’t getting anything because the hungry Arab military & PolisAlgerio bastards aren’t giving them anything. All what these camp people get is; hunger; rape; humiliation; & killings.
PolisAlgerio suckers, propaganda history starts from the Spanish occupation. Why don’t they go away beyond that or away beyond that is the great Morocco from Oujda until Sudan, Mauritania didn’t exist. History takes us until the Ottoman Empire & its occupation of the Maghreb Berber & before the Ottomans is the united Maghreb Berber.
The multimillionaires shawia Algerian military scum & their family won’t be taking the money with them when they die, the PolisAlgerio Arab suckers are getting too old, very disappointed & breaking up slowly, slowly. The Berber Sahara is still with Morocco & it's getting better & better & there to stay forever with Morocco. The Berber land for us the Amazigh is still united, one land, one country & not 5 countries. I feel more welcomed & in my land when I visit my Berber brothers & sisters in Kabily north of Algeria. You the PolisAlgerio sucker would be killed if you go there because they don’t like the dirty Arabs or black African traitors like you who are doing no good but only causing more problems in their amazigh land. The amazing land is the land which is from the Mediterranean Sea to Mali & from Egypt to Mauritania.
The real mazigh.

And more:

What do you mean by too wordy?
I don’t need to introduce my self because I’m not going to be here for too long, I’m too busy with the amazigh forums, that unites all amazigh/native maghreb Berber & its people, from Egypt to Mauritania.
I only posted this to give a message to this bad Arab scum (from Algeria or a PolisAlgerio Arab) & the Algerian suckers; PolisAlgerios, anywhere they are, that even a tiny piece of the Berber land doesn’t belong to them & will never belong to them. You can live there; I mean anywhere in the Berber land, as a guest & respect my land & my people.
To the Arab suckers anywhere they are. Are you aware that your origin can be easily traced? You & your people came, on a camel, to the Maghreb Berber only between 200 & 600 years ago.
Could you compare 200 or 600 years with over 11000 of years of Berber existence in North Africa? It was very peacefull before you came; one race one people. It breaks my heart when i think about it.
The Algerian Arab military scum has made you very naughty & very silly. They made you very sick until you started to think that the Berber Sahara, is really yours, they made you sick until you’ve started to disrespect my people & my Berber land. The Algerian military Arab & their dogs in Tindouf only care about the money they are making for themselves & their family. You’ve been manipulated & brain washed so your voices can be heard & money can be poured in. What I don’t understand is when this Arab scum is brain washing these Arab suckers & dogs; the native landowners of the Maghreb Berber aren't mentioned.
The Berber Sahara has seen a great Berber leaders men & women; the history will never forget them & I shall never forget them. They have launched bloodiest battles against the Roman occupiers of North Africa.
The Berber Touarig that have left to live in the big Berber Sahara to escape the Arab invasion & preserve the Berber traditions, without them tifnagh won’t be alive today. I thank you touarig.
The real mazigh.

[metalsa]

Dear Imazighen inno, Azul and Salaam aleikum,

First of all it’s not logical to speak of one Sahroui culture and group! The Sahroui`s in Morocco are not one group of people, they are actually divided. There are Berbers and Arabs first of all. Almost the half of the Sahroui`s are Arabised Berbers ( Imazighen). My people the Imazigen are the original inhabitants of the Sahara. Look at the names in the Sahara and old rock paintings. Adrar Iforas etc. Most Amazigh Saharans don`t speak the language of there grandparants Tamzight anymore unfortunately. The Amazigh Saharans are dark and light skinned, it`s not true that the Berber Saharans are light skinned only, there are braun skinned Amazigh Saharans due to climate conditions there skinn changes colour after the Ice Age when the Sahara became a dessert. But you can recognize there faces as beeing of Amazigh descent.

Second, the area were the Saharan people live is also South-Algeria, West-Libia, Mauritania and other North-African countries. Why don`t they ask these countries for "there" land? There is also a big Touaregh ( total Berber) group living in the Sahara. What is the opinion of these people regarding the claim of the Polisario that they speak for the Saharans. Do the Saharan people in Tindouf really support the Polisario? Are they not manipilated and held against there will in Tindouf? Do they have the oportuninty to come back to Morocco? Do we have to propose a referendum to prove the legitamacy of the Polisario as the represantatives of the Sahroui population?

It is far to dangerous for 200.000 Sahroui`s to get a county as big as the North of Morocco with 30.000.000 inhabitants of different backgrounds. This would be a great danger for the geopolitics and stability of this region and this group could never defend itself of the terrorist danger. Morocco is a multi-cultural country that is well aware of the cultural background of it’s citizens as well it is an example for the other Maghreb countries regarding progressive government and moderate Islamic course.

Actually I think the whole of the Maghreb is one people regarding there culture, language and ethnic background. There are many sub-groups and tribes within this Maghreb group. The Amazigh culture can be used as a cement to hold the Maghrebbian tribes and groups together. We are al brothers! I`m of Moroccan Riffian descent, but my dialect and cutums is more like the Berbers of Algeria than the people in Rabat. You see Morocco is a multi-cultural country with a big affiliation with the other Maghreb countries. If Morocco falls apart every tribe will demand it’s own government and we will fall into great anarchy, because they do not have the means and knowledge to govern! The best way for now to govern the Sahara is not division but unity in the Maghreb!

Morocco is changing and giving every group it`s rights. We must focus on autonomy of the regions within the Maghreb Union. No division but unity. Morocco consist of Riffi`s, Cleuh, Jbella, Soussa, Arabs, Moroccan Jews etc. These are all as different as they are alike. The Sahroui`s who are my brothers are the victims of a plot of the “Sahroui leaders”and “Algerian hegemony” in the Maghreb.

The Amazigh customs and language is very different from the people in Rabat and I agree that the wealth is not equally spread. Other people and region had also a lot to suffer in past by the human right abuses of the army! But look at the backgrounds of the soldiers in the army from high ranking officers till the basic soldiers they have all different backgrounds ; Sahroui`s, Riffies, Cleuh en Sous Berbers, they are all dominant in this army. So this army is a reflection of the inhabitants of Morocco. But the army changes and abuses are something from the past that has changes already a great deal. I saw it with my own eyes. This is because all the groups are demanding their right in the Maghreb. We need you Sahroui`s to be part of Maghreb and to put pressure with us on the Moroccan and other Maghreb Union governments to develop there democracy more and listen to it’s people. The more different groups we will consist of the more democratic we will be!

Now they will get the chance under autonomy from Morocco to prove and govern themselves. I want the Sahroui`s to be free and happy to and the best way at this moment is the Moroccan autonomy plan. Compare Morocco to other countries in the Maghreb. I think if in the future the Maghreb countries will be more developed, there would be more space for a Maghreb confederation of regions were all these regions have great autonomy under the Maghreb confederation of states.

Together we can make a change and built up our land! My people the Imazighen are the original inhabitants of the Maghreb and this includes the Sahara. I ask you Sahroui`s lets unite and make the Maghreb a better country for our children and other future generations. I believe we can do this because we are as much different as we are the same!

[navy64a]

الخلاصة هي أن العوامل جعلت من تعميق ارتهان المغرب لنزاع الصحراء رهانا جزائريا تضمن من خلاله إشغال المغرب عن المطالبة بالصحراء الشرقية، مثلما هو حال إسبانيا التي اختارت نفس الموقف حتى لا يتحرك المغرب للمطالبة بتحرير سبتة ومليلية والجزر المحتلة من جهة أولى، وعملت في نفس السياق على توفير التغطية للتدخل الأجنبي في المنطقة من جهة ثانية.
le Maroc gagne la guerre au sahara contre algerie+libya+cuba+poli c'est fini
sahara est marocain ... Vive le FIS et Vive Republic kabylien capitale TiziOzou

[navy64a]

الخلاصة هي أن العوامل جعلت من تعميق ارتهان المغرب لنزاع الصحراء رهانا جزائريا تضمن من خلاله إشغال المغرب عن المطالبة بالصحراء الشرقية، مثلما هو حال إسبانيا التي اختارت نفس الموقف حتى لا يتحرك المغرب للمطالبة بتحرير سبتة ومليلية والجزر المحتلة من جهة أولى، وعملت في نفس السياق على توفير التغطية للتدخل الأجنبي في المنطقة من جهة ثانية.
le Maroc gagne la guerre au sahara contre algerie+libya+cuba+poli c'est fini
sahara est marocain ... Vive le FIS et Vive Republic kabylien capitale TiziOzou