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Apostasy: Punishable by Death

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Old 5th April 2005, 17:17
neo-jefferson2
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One of the most controversial topics for Muslims in the West is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. Muslims living in the Mideast have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict. The West values freedom of thought and freedom of speech are two virtues that have never blossomed under Islam. Consequently when asked about the Islamic law for apostates Muslims in the West hide behind excuses such as "only a true Islamic state can execute apostates", or "punishment was carried out because those apostates were threats to the new Islamic state, and it is not needed anymore".

Starting with the Quran we can read:

Sura 9:73,74 -

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire. They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty. If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them." [Dawood]

We see here that Allah urges Muhammad to "make war" on the people who have left Islam. It also states that "Allah will punish them in this world, and in the world to come".

Sura 47:23-28 -

"If you renounced the faith, you would surely do evil in the land, and violate the ties of blood. Such are those on whom God has laid His curse, leaving them deaf and sightless.... Those who return to unbelief after God's guidance has been revealed to them are seduced by Satan and inspired by him....


Again, God is punishing people, in this world, but the totality of punishment isn't detailed... other than becoming "deaf and sightless". No doubt this is spiritual blindness, because millions have left Islam and have never become physically blind.

So a brief review of the Quran’s position on apostates:

1. Muhammad is to “make war†on them
2. Allah is going to punish them in this world and in the next
3. Allah curses them
4. They will be punished in hellfire

It is from the Hadith that we draw our understand and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith, from the 9 volume.

Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

Bukhari, volume 9, #64
Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you, (not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ‘During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.’"

Bukhari, volume 9, #271 [This one is similar to #58]

Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Muadh Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam, and then reverted back to Judaism." Muadh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His messenger."

Bukhari, Chapter 26, from the Book of Mutual Consultation, page 339, following Hadith # 461

"The Statement of Allah... 42:32, 3:159, ...The prophet said, "If someone changes his religion, then kill them....."
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Old 5th April 2005, 18:31
-theTruth- -theTruth- is offline
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Salam

this issue is very difficult to give clear fatwas because of the complexities it carries.
There are different opinions on this matter and only a Court can decide because of its complexity. However
Those who live in a non muslim country have a contract signed with the Authorities and that contract is allowing them to work and live as a citizan of that land and therefore have no right to change the law when they feel like it but to obeye it unless it has been done legaly nor are allowed to defraud the system either so when a person chooses to go against a religion it become a matter of that land's law to decide and not Muslims.
Unlike Catholics who were killing our grand parents the moors while in Spain without just cause or the Jews who went ahead killing anyone who claimed to be a Prophet with new religion Islam does not allow such force to be used without a reason
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Some brother explained it much better
see below
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But the matter does not end here. We know that the Qur’an has referred to the issue of apostasy at more than one place (for example see Al-Baqarah 2: 217, Al-Baqarah 2: 108, A’l Imra’n 3: 90, Al-Nisa’ 4: 137 and Al-Nahl 16: 106). But at none of these places does the Qur’an mention the punishment of death for such people who change their religion. The Qur’an does mention that such people shall face a terrible punishment in the hereafter but no worldly punishment is mentioned at any of these instances in the Qur’an. This situation obviously raises a question mark in the mind of the reader that if Allah had wanted to give the punishment of an apostate a permanent position in the Shari`ah, the punishment should have been mentioned, at least at one of the above mentioned places. If the Qur’an had kept completely silent about the apostate, the matter would have been different. But the strange thing is that the Qur’an mentions apostasy, and still does not mention the punishment (if any) it wants the apostate to be subjected to.

Moreover, the Qur’an clearly mentions in Al-Baqarah 2: 256 that:

There is absolutely no compulsion in religion
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"Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.
"Those who blasphemed and back away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them." Suratan Nisa', Ayah 48.
"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137.
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So to post few haddiths and verses without knowing the reason behind them is not wise
You also need to look at the Tourat and the bible and see what the rulling are.
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Old 5th April 2005, 23:46
neo-jefferson2
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Tihad, thank you for your answer. I agree with you, the Quran is not clear about the worldly punishment of those who leave Islam, except its lucid command to the prophet to fight them severely and wage war on them, which of course involves killing.

The point you're making is that of a very moderate Muslim. I might even say, it is that of a Liberal Muslim. The influence of the European Western culture is obvious in your thinking. Which is a positive thing. O Tihad I wish all Muslims shared your views. As you know, Chrisitans were never allowed to build Churches in the land of Islam. Jews were never allowed to add synagogues. Of course Islam protects those religious building that proceeded Islam, i.e. it did not destroy churches, but it did not allow people to rebuild or fix those churches. Without maintenace, these churches would be ruins over time. This is known as the Doctrine of Omar, because it was instituted by Omar Ibn Al-Khatab, and is a common Islamic Tradition.

On another note, could you please explain to me the bases of Sha'ia law. Because ALL MUSLIMS know and practice the law based on the Quran and Sunna represented in the Hadiths and practices of the Prophet. However on Morocco.com and La-Casbah.com, we have you and MoroccanChica basing the Shari'a on only Quran, however you always overlook the Hadiths when they don't suit you, or when they make you look bad. Please acknowledge that it is an Islamic principle to prosecute and kill the apostates. The Hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are more than clear about this subject. The Sunna was there to complete the Quran. It is common language in the Islamic World, like 1+1=2. You can ask any Imam and he will tell you, yes you are supposed to kill the apostates, Al-Murtadeen. Muslims between them, they say, yes you must kill the apostates, but Muslims in front of their Western friends, they say, well...you need to go to the court, then the Quran never said this, that Hadith is a lie, the prophet never said that, etc....But as soon as they go to Morocco and feel confortable in their land, they start saying Killing the apostates, is what we should do to honor and protect Islam. Tihad, I am a Moroccan, and I lived in Morocco, and also grew up Muslim. I know a lot about Islam...A LOT. It was my religion once, and I was like you. I was very religious. But I was always an open-minded pupil of this life, and I might say openmindedness is the best thing in the World. Islam is a good religion, many of its concepts are honorable. Such as helping the poor, taking care of the family, the holliness, respecting parents and the elderly are all great concepts, 99% of the religion is good, but it is the one percent that is scary. Only the intelligent and open-minded, those who God guides them, can recognize that. The one percent is the poison, the threat, and it is protected by a wall of fear and ultimatums. Whoever question something, is gone.

Also stop talking about what Catholics did or the Jews did to defend your points. Those practices were wrong, and they are over now. They were never the true interpretation of the Bible in the first place, and they have been revoked. However it is a blasphemy (punishable by death) to even think about altering the Quran and Hadith. That is where the problem arises. In Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, executioners are still cutting people's hands and heads. It is barbaric, it is primitive, it is inhumane, but yet, no one can change it. It is in the Shari'a and must remain there. So recognize it as being true, and deal with it. Either agree with your faith, or disagree. Do not use philosophical methods to explain nothing.

Thank you for this good discussion.

Jefferson
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Old 6th April 2005, 01:20
Theja Theja is offline
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Why did the Moors go to Spain in the first place? Did they not attack that nation and try to conquer Europe? You speak as though the Moors had no blood in their hands?

Here I brought this up so one can see both sides, instead of accusing the other as though one party is completely innocent.
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Old 6th April 2005, 13:08
LalaMimi LalaMimi is offline
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We live in a different world now, so this is a lot different (apart from what can happen in Saudi, Iran, Sudan etc) - many Muslims don't have the tribal zone mentality, that was once a central aspect....

Islam is a religion, a way of life and there are tribal elements. I think this law is related to this part of Islam (similar how it was in The OT - apostates were stoned to death) - To Muslims, Islam is supposed to be everything, it is a Ummah and it governs just about all area of life; so for a Muslim to leave Islam is like Death, like the ending of life/Islam, like someone leaving and rejecting the tribe.. I think this is symbolic of the concept of killing the apostate... there is no life without Islam, no real purpose in existing...
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Old 6th April 2005, 14:51
neo-jefferson2
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mimi, I left Islam a long time ago and feel very alive. Free, rejuvenated, and happy. I know God loves me, that's the purpose of my creation, not to be His slave and fight others to spread His word. God is not Sadistic you know. I am glad I discovered the truth and left Islam at a very young age while I still have my life ahead of me. Some people find it difficult to do the same thing when they are at an advanced age of their life. It makes them feel like they've wasted 40 or 50 years believing in a mirage. It's sad.

But don't get me wrong, I am always proud of my heritage, music, food, and culture. There is a difference, although the influence of Islam on the Moroccan culture is Humongous. As I said before, 99% of Islam is good.

Cheers, and Dima Dima Maghribi...
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Old 6th April 2005, 15:47
Theja Theja is offline
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Stoning to death....

Without going into lengthy details and listing tons of verses, I will try to explain the stoning practice briefly.....

The main calling of Abraham, and subsequently Israel, was to bring the Messiah to the world (Gen. 12:1-3). That is the reason God placed a special protection on the people -- to receive the blessing of God, and in turn bless the world.

God clearly said He chose Israel not because they were better than others.

Every privilege comes with responsibility. This is where Israel failed many times, as can be seen from their history. But in the main, God kept to the promise and enabled Israel to bring the Messiah to the world. That is why Jesus was a Jew born under Jewish law (Torah) (Galatians 4:4).

When Israel came out of Egypt/slavery to the wilderness, they became a nation, with their laws centering on the Torah. In Canaan, the people have many customs and laws and practices that God does not want Israel to emulate.

(As a young nation and inexperienced and somewhat confused, it took hundreds of years for Israel to be rid of idolatry, after the Babylonian exile).

So imagine the difficulty for Israel to learn to walk in the ways of God without being influenced by the ways of the neighbors. SO IN THIS FORMATIVE YEARS, God placed strict rules of adherence even to the point of death penalty. Because leniency in one will lead to another and Israel will become just like the others -- indistinguishable and incapable of producing the Messiah.

Isaiah 40:1-5 says that Israel will have fulfilled her mission once the Messiah has come.

Verse 1-2, responsibility carried out.

Verse 3-4, John (Yahya)the baptist fulfilled this prophecy (Mark 1:3) as an ambassador arranging the coming of the King.

Verse 5, the glory of God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ who is the light of the world: He came to forgive, to heal, to bless, and to give hope of the next life to the world. When the baby Jesus was presented to the temple, Simeon praised God and declared: Luke 2:29-32.

Except for the Ten Commandments, many of the ancient customs have become irrelevant after the coming of the Messiah. Even the stoning was abolished as implied by the Messiah in John 8:1-11.

But as a people, God still has a purpose for Israel and He brought them back to the land. I know Muslims find it hard to swallow this fact and many still refuse to acknowledge or have relations with Israel.

But what God has ordained, man cannot change.
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